Sillinesses

[simont]

In what order would you naturally list the four suits of a pack of cards?

The best-known order I'm aware of is bridge order (alphabetical or reverse-alphabetical, depending on whether you're listing least to most valuable or vice versa); but bridge order has always struck me as inelegant because with two suits of each colour one really ought to alternate them. (Not least because if you plan to use the suit order in an actual hand of cards, you want to be able to see the suit boundaries easily.)

My favourite order has always been HCDS, simply because it was the order used in a card trick described in a Johnny Ball book I read when I was a nipper, and I think I subconsciously assumed at the time that if there was a canonical suit ordering he would naturally have used it. HCDS does alternate colours, of course. But I've never noticed anyone else naturally using that order, so I slowly came to the conclusion that there probably wasn't a well known canonical order after all.

Yesterday a silly idea occurred to me: I used Google to search for all 24 suit orders as double-quoted strings, in turn, and compared the hit counts. Unsurprisingly, the biggest result was that the two directions of bridge order (CDHS and SHDC) between them had over twice as many hits as all the other 22 searches put together. However, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that out of the eight orders which alternate suits, my old friend HCDS came top (although not by very much).

While I'm posting silly and inconsequential things, a fun thought occurred to me a couple of weeks ago. You know those price signs you get in supermarkets which advertise (for example) 1.5kg of flour for 41p, and then say ‘(27p per kg)’ so you don't have to work out the overall value for money yourself? It occurred to me that it would be fun to apply that to the clothes section: imagine a pair of shoes, and a price tag saying ‘£35.00 (£17.50 per shoe)’. Or better still, trousers: ‘(£11.00 per leg)’. It wouldn't do to be swindled by pack prices :-)

Comments

[deborah_c]

Spades, hearts, clubs, diamonds. And that's despite being (or at least having been -- I haven't played for ages) a bridge player too. Odd -- I'd never thought about it, but that was automatic.

[bugshaw.livejournal.com]

SCHD. And this is the first I've heard that anyone might not use the same. At some point when young I was "taught" this was the "correct" order, but I have no idea why.

[bugshaw.livejournal.com]

But yes, alternating colours would make life easier and I will switch to that in future.

A more "natural" order might be DHSC, i.e. arranging them in order of (apologies - correct geometrical terms flee my brain) number of angles which point inwards.
♦ ♥ ♠ ♣ (may not display correctly on all systems - I can't see the diamond on mine)

[beckyc.livejournal.com]

CDHS for me.

[libellum.livejournal.com]

Bridge order - Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs (from highest to lowest)

[mooism.livejournal.com]

CHSD. Some long-forgotton card game I played as a child specified that the suits were ordered as in the word “chased”.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

I played bridge at school. Before that I don't think I had a natural order, but after, I instinctively use the bridge order. I do agree my first thought was "why couldn't the colours have alternated?" and in fact only later did it occur to me that it was alphabetical.

(Do you know if that's *why* or if it's coincidence?)

My natural reaction if I were going to change it would be to switch clubs and diamonds, thus retaining bridge's (annoyingly arbitrary imho) minor/major distinction, and the "foo in spades" construction.

However, I think probably keeping the ordering (except for in your hand where it generally matters less) because:

* It's easier if everyone does the same thing.
* I can legitimately have mao rules "A card of the next-highest suit in the standard ordering" when playing with most people.
* The alphabetical thing is easy to remember when you first learn.
* If I ever forget, I can provide people with endless entertainment by having shouted at me "It's ALPHABETICAL! How can you get that wrong?"

In fact, maybe the right stratgey is to all switch over at once. Maybe 2050 should be international HCDS[1] day, and we all agree that before that we use the standard order but advertise the new one, and then we get all the confusion with over at once, together, and then we have a universal AND sensible system. Who could not agree with that?

[1] Hey, "grue" switched over and I forgot!

[simont]

I instinctively use the bridge order

Ah, but which bridge order? We've already had people quoting it in both directions. (I really should have made a proper LJ poll, but I've never done it before and didn't feel like learning how for such an unimportant thing.)

Do you know if that's *why* or if it's coincidence?

No, no idea. I actually found out when playing Mao (which I learned a couple of years before attempting bridge): as you mention further down your post, bridge order tends to crop up in Mao rules because when a rule needs a suit ordering it's generally convenient to all use the same one. So in one of my first Mao games, someone explained a rule and just said "bridge order", and I said "hang on, what order is that", and they said "alphabetical", and I've never had trouble remembering it since. For that reason I tend to think of bridge order as CDHS rather than SHDC, although I can see that either would make sense depending on context.

bridge's (annoyingly arbitrary imho) minor/major distinction

I quite like that distinction, actually, just because it's occasionally useful to have a well known 2/2 split of suits that's orthogonal to colour (again, in Mao more often than not :-), and minors/majors is intuitive to any bridge player and also groups together hearts and spades which are similarly shaped.

Hey, "grue" switched over and I forgot!

So it did! :-)

[senji.livejournal.com]

CHDS, which seems entirely illogical to me :-).

It's HDSC(NT) for whist trump ordering, SHDC for value in bridge, CSHD for value in skat (Bells, Hearts, Leaves, Acorns) and trump-ordering in Doppelkopf (and from memory, the Jass games), and of course, CHSD for bidding in 99.

[ilanin.livejournal.com]

Likewise, and I don't know why either.

[bjh21.livejournal.com]

For some reason, HDCS is the order that I instinctively use.

[satanicsocks.livejournal.com]

Me too. :)

[meirion.livejournal.com]

clubs, diamonds, hearts, spades.

-m-

[atreic.livejournal.com]

Clubs, Spades, Hearts, Diamonds

Too much dopplekoft, I fear

[jy100.livejournal.com]

Definitely CDHS. We even had a scurrilous mnemonic for it, origin unknown: "Clifton D***** High School".

[gerald_duck]

Clubs, Diamonds, Hearts, Spades(, No-trump)

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

Alchohol, pence per ml ethnol.
Pants, pence per acre.
Electric fire, pence per ohm.
Egg, pence per calorie.
Flour, pence per pancake -- that would actually make sense.

[ptc24.livejournal.com]

CDHS for me. Excuses go between the D and the H.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

I would draw them and then put names to them, and would start with hearts, then draw a club and take five seconds to remember the name, then after a short time remember one of them was a diamond and draw that, then look at what I'd got and draw a spade the other side of the heart because it's an upside down heart with a stick on, and eventually remember what it's called.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

Also: if you priced trousers per leg, how would you evaluate the cost of putting on the zip, waistband and crotch seam (not in that order), which belong to neither leg/both legs but take up most of the faffing?

[j4.livejournal.com]

HCDS, and I have no idea why, but that's how it comes into my head. (If the Johnny Ball book you remember it from was "Second Thinks"[*], though, you could be on to something there.) It sounds like a skipping-rhyme, though, that way round. "Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades." "England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales." "Eggs, Bacon, Chips and Peas." You know. I wonder if it's something to do with the shapes of the vowels? I mean, that gives them that sing-song quality?

And as to the other question -- I like the idea, but I'd also like to see clothing prices shown as price per square whatever of fabric. That would show clearly what good value for money outerwear is as compared to underwear. I mean, a tshirt's going to be something like 2p per square inch, whereas a thong will be something more like £1 per square inch!

[*] Was there a First Thinks? Why did I only have the second?

[simont]

Yes, there was a first book, called "Think Box". I have it, if you want to borrow it :-) But I'm afraid the HCDS thing was in it, and not in Second Thinks (I checked last night), so if you've only seen Second then you won't have seen the bit I'm thinking of.

I agree that HCDS has a nice swing to it, and I did idly wonder at one point whether that was something to do with it - but was foiled by the fact that I couldn't quite tell whether I only thought it had a nice swing because I was so used to using it as my default order.

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

Now I am earwormed (http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/grand_duke/libretto.txt):

ALL. A King!
He's drawn a King!
Sing Hearts and Diamonds, Spades and Clubs!

ALL. (dancing) How strange a thing!
He's drawn a King!
An excellent card � his chance it aids �
Sing Hearts and Diamonds, Spades and Clubs �
Sing Diamonds, Hearts and Clubs and Spades!

NOT. (to LUDWIG) Now take a card with heart of grace �
(Whatever our fate, let's play our parts).

LUD. (drawing card) Hurrah, hurrah! � I've drawn an Ace!

ALL. An Ace!
He's drawn an Ace!
Sing Clubs and Diamonds, Spades and Hearts!

ALL. (dancing) He's drawn an Ace!
Observe his face �
Such rare good fortune falls to few �
Sing Clubs and Diamonds, Spades and Hearts �
Sing Clubs, Spades, Hearts and Diamonds too!

NOT. That both these maids may keep their troth,
And never misfortune them befall,
I'll hold 'em as trustee for both �

ALL. He'll hold 'em both!
Yes, he'll hold 'em both!
Sing Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades and all!

[dennyd.livejournal.com]

I decided on this order for myself sometime in my teens, never having been exposed to any kind of instruction re: card games (before or since).

♠ ♦ ♣ ♥

Reasoning:
1. Spades is the most valuable suite, I've always assumed from the fact that it's often the only one in the pack with a fancy ace.
2. Colour alternation just feels right.
3. Diamonds are cooler looking than hearts, also more symmetrical. Also possibly more valuable feeling, if you think of them as big shiny expensive things.

[filecoreinuse.livejournal.com]

Hearts, Spades, Diamonds and Clubs for the same reason I order the letters of the alphabet 'A', 'B', 'C', etc — that was the order I first saw them and learnt them in.

[filecoreinuse.livejournal.com]

It occurred to me that it would be fun to apply that to the clothes section: imagine a pair of shoes, and a price tag saying ‘£35.00 (£17.50 per shoe)’. Or better still, trousers: ‘(£11.00 per leg)’. It wouldn't do to be swindled by pack prices :-)

You are never going to label the family planning section if I ever run a supermarket and employ you :).

[satanicsocks.livejournal.com]

Durex Ultraglide - It'll cost you 18 years of your life and £n,000 if you don't buy them?

[axamendes.livejournal.com]

I would argue for alternating colours. I would place the spades topmost in the deck (I'm assuming a face up ordering), because the Ace of Spades is normally a specially designed card, incorporating the imprimatur of the designer. As an exuberantly flowery Ace, it would seem sad to let it languish deeper in the deck. Hearts would then come second, rather than diamonds: love trumps riches any day...

[christhomas123.livejournal.com]

I've played cards since before I can remember and we used to play Spades, Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, but I think mostly Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs.

Spades is always the 'top' suit. The Ace of Spades is the top card of the pack, and it's the card that still has all the decoration even though there's no tax on cards anymore...

[crystal-claire.livejournal.com]

My immediate response was "hearts, clubs, diamonds, spades". If I'm in a bridge mood, it'll be "clubs, diamonds, hearts, spades", but that's more by duty than by inclination.

[crystal-claire.livejournal.com]

I've read the rest of your post now, and I win! Same as you!

[(Anonymous)]

For some bizarre reason I cannot fathom, my mind said CHDS.

CDHS does alternate "Rounded" with "Pointed" suits (the other binary division, in addition to "Red/Black" and "Major/Minor").