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simont

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Mon 2003-12-01 10:14

So, Saturday night was [livejournal.com profile] lark_ascending's birthday party, so I trundled along and attempted to have fun.

With very little success, though. For an unpleasantly large fraction of the evening it seemed that all the people I most wanted to spend time with were already preoccupied with talking to one another, often about things that didn't interest me; so I spent a lot of the party staring into space, moping, or making a token effort to seem like part of a conversation so as not to be obviously mopey.

The way I describe that, it sounds as if it's just one of those things, just bad luck; statistically that sort of thing must happen to everyone at parties once in a while and it just so happened that it was my turn last night. But on the other hand, that just-bad-luck argument seems to be the excuse I've used the last three or four times I failed to enjoy myself at parties, so I wonder if it's worth looking deeper for reasons why it might happen to me more often than to other people.

I think part of it is that I'm not very conversationally assertive. I can remember this as far back as childhood; it often seemed to me that I'd be saying something at the dinner table, my sister or my dad would interrupt and start their own conversation, and when I protested Mum would say something along the lines of ‘that's just the way conversation naturally goes, it's rude to make a fuss about it’. Yet when I tried to do the same thing, it would be more like ‘shush, it's rude to interrupt’. (Even more unjustly, I recall occasionally being ticked off for interrupting when what I was actually doing was protesting about having just been interrupted!) In retrospect I'm sure this was actually my biased childish viewpoint either selectively noticing only the times where it went against me, or failing to spot some vital distinction between the specific cases, or both; but it seemed to me after a while that I'd better get used to what I wanted to talk about being less important than what other people wanted to talk about, no matter whether they were older and wiser than me or younger and more enthusiastic, no matter whether I was in the middle of saying something or was trying to interrupt them.

Now I am older and wiser, or at any rate older, and I can now look back on that and see it as an unfortunate childhood experience which doesn't actually mean I'm worthless or boring or stupid or in any other way intrinsically deserving of having a smaller part in conversations than other people. But unfortunately, the habits seem to have persisted; when other people are talking about something I find tedious, I'm very reluctant to attempt to change the topic to something I'm more interested in, and yet when I'm talking about something interesting with people, I'm just as reluctant to resist when someone else changes the topic on me.

Another thing I notice is that when there's a group of people I like having a conversation, my instinct is to wander up, join the circle, and listen quietly until I understand the topic of conversation before beginning to join in. Other people seem much more willing to wander up to someone I'm in the middle of talking to, say hi to them and start their own conversation with them, often about something I don't even know about (a mutual acquaintance, for example) and can't usefully contribute to, leaving me thinking ‘Oh. Now what do I do?’. Now on the one hand this is reasonably easily explained by the phenomenon I describe in the previous couple of paragraphs, but on the other hand it also strikes me as textbook Usenet etiquette (lurk for a bit until you understand the rules before attempting to post), so I wonder if Usenet might also be a partial cause :-)

So I suppose what I'm really wondering here is, to what extent is this a problem with other people (I find it difficult to imagine that none of the cases I've listed involved someone else being rude or insensitive), and to what extent is it a problem with me (taking politeness to the extreme of ridiculous overcaution and self-effacement)? And also, to what extent have I misperceived the situation to begin with (do I actually monopolise conversations without even noticing, for example)?

It's concerns like this which have recently made me make an effort to try to spend time with one other person, or at most a very small group, as often as I can. None of these social dynamics issues really seems to apply in a one-to-one conversation, so it's very relaxing and I actually get a chance to enjoy people's company more.

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[identity profile] j4.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 02:59
A lot of people do seem to talk over other people and butt in to conversations. Sometimes it doesn't bother me; if I'm saying something that's just trivial anyway then I don't tend to mind too much if somebody else barges in with something more interesting. It annoys me more when somebody talks over the person I'm listening to -- then I often will make an active attempt to stop person B butting in (though making it clear I'll be happy to listen to them when person A has finished). I always feel very teacherish for doing it, though.

Worried about saying any more about this because I suspect I'm dreadful at this kind of thing and as such have barely even a high moral shetland pony from which to cast stones in glass clichés.
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[identity profile] ex-lark-asc.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 03:03
aw *hug* :( I was rather preoccupied playing hostess or I'd've come and talked to you..

My strategy once people get drunk and lose their manners is to keep talking over them till they notice and shut up..

Also, hijacking conversations is much easier by grassroots revolution than by coup - make a side comment to someone on a related issue to what the main conversation is about, take it from there and after a while other people around you will notice what you're talking about and get interested in that instead. Morph it, don't derail it ;)

FWIW I've enver noticed you being anything other than a perfect gentleman in cnoversation - unfortunately, few other people ahve the same degree of courtesy these days..
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[personal profile] simontMon 2003-12-01 03:49
"much easier by grassroots revolution than by coup"

*grin* Nicely put. In fact I have been carefully cultivating a coup approach: a sort of authoritative tone of voice that allows me to cut across a lot of babble when I want to say something really important, without actually raising my voice more than a little bit. It works very well, but I'm careful not to overuse it - it only gets used for really important things when everyone else has overlooked something absolutely vital, or occasionally when an unmissable pun opportunity is about to get away from me :-)
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[identity profile] hilarityallen.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 11:51
Oh no! Stop that pun!
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[identity profile] j4.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 03:18
Oh, and...
Sorry, I only half-answered. I'm not quite awake yet. Anyway:

Another thing I notice is that when there's a group of people I like having a conversation, my instinct is to wander up, join the circle, and listen quietly until I understand the topic of conversation before beginning to join in. Other people seem much more willing to wander up to someone I'm in the middle of talking to, say hi to them and start their own conversation with them

Personally I'd go for a compromise between those two strategies -- wander up, say "Hi" but leave it up to the people whose conversation I've joined whether they want to derail their conversation and talk to me, or carry on as they were (in which case I'll either join in as I pick up the threads of the conversation, or wander off again if it's not to my taste). It's a way of signalling your presence & your interest in talking to the people present, but still being polite about it. I think if people just wander up to a group and remain silent it's harder for the group to include them in the conversation unforcedly (yes, you could say "So what do you think of $subject, $newcomer?" but it'd seem very seminar-ish).

It's much more like IRC than usenet, really -- you join the channel, say "Hello", and then see what happens. Sometimes nobody takes much notice except perhaps to say "hi" inbetween carrying on with an existing conversation, and you just pick up the thread and join in with that (if you want to); other times everybody says "Hi, how are you?" and is happy for you to dictate the direction of the conversation.

(Of course, IRC is still different, because you can have lots of simultaneous conversations going on at once with different people, and your text can't actually obscure somebody else's in the way that one person can talk over another... which is one of the reasons I like IRC.)

And also, to what extent have I misperceived the situation to begin with (do I actually monopolise conversations without even noticing, for example)?

I don't think you do that at all.
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[personal profile] simontMon 2003-12-01 05:23
Re: Oh, and...
"It's much more like IRC than usenet, really -- you join the channel, say "Hello", and then see what happens."

I don't IRC much these days, but when I do, I do that and it usually turns out everybody is idle :-)

"... which is one of the reasons I like IRC."

Yes, it's certainly got its good points as a conversation medium. I think the only thing I don't like about it is that you don't get any feedback on whether the other person is sitting idle or in the middle of frantically typing a three-line response to you - I know I've occasionally tried to change the subject due to a pause, only to find that actually the previous subject was very much alive so I needn't have bothered :-) Not sure whether there's any sensible way to fix that one, though.

Can I just compliment you on the outstanding invention of a "moral shetland pony"? That's a fantastic concept. And image. *grin*
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[identity profile] ewx.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 15:25
Re: Oh, and...everybody is idle
idle=not-IRCing or idle=not-working? IAMFI
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[identity profile] lzz.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 03:44
I'm sorry if I've been rude or insensitive - FWIW, it was lovely to see you and a shame when you left early. I tend to experience the same phenomenon of getting left out of conversations at times, but this is easily explained by the fact that I'm not a geek and everyone else is. ;-)
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[identity profile] absinthecity.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 03:56
hi there

feel free to ignore, but do you ever wonder if it's a self fulfilling prophesy?

I've learnt through years of observation that most people feel this way from time to time. It's normal. Just as I'm sure there are parties where you're on a roll and have a great night, there will always be some where you feel like getting your proverbial coat from the minute you walk in. Maybe you're tired. Maybe you've got work on your mind.

The trick as far as I'm concerned is not to admit to feeling this way (d'oh!) when it happens. I've noticed that this is not the first time you've written up a party experience in much these terms, and to be brutally honest, knowing someone analysed the situation in this way would put me off talking to them.

If you have a crap night, put it down to experience. Don't make people feel obliged to be nice to you on future occasions. There's no reason they won't be friendly unless you make it into an issue!
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[personal profile] simontMon 2003-12-01 04:19
I'm sure self-fulfilling prophecy is part of it once it gets started. If nobody seems to want to talk to me, that'll put me in a bad mood and then of course people will continue not wanting to talk to me... And I am often tired, and that's probably part of it too.

"Don't make people feel obliged to be nice to you on future occasions."

Goodness, you seem to have severely misunderstood the point of this post! I'm not accusing people of being nasty to me, and I'm certainly not trying to guilt-trip or otherwise oblige them to pay me more attention in future. I mostly want to know whether I could be doing something differently.

"The trick as far as I'm concerned is not to admit to feeling this way (d'oh!) when it happens. I've noticed that this is not the first time you've written up a party experience in much these terms, and to be brutally honest, knowing someone analysed the situation in this way would put me off talking to them."

Err, hang on. You mean, you're sure everybody feels like that sometimes, but if someone says so then you know they feel like that and that puts you off them? Despite knowing they felt like that anyway because everyone does? I'm confused...
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[identity profile] absinthecity.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 05:33
"Err, hang on. You mean, you're sure everybody feels like that sometimes, but if someone says so then you know they feel like that and that puts you off them? Despite knowing they felt like that anyway because everyone does? I'm confused...

Well look at it this way -- you know everyone's in the same boat. Isn't the best response therefore to deal with it privately when it happens?

I'm not saying I'm a fan of suffering in silence, but in this case I think that drawing attention to the issue may be causing greater suffering for you. This is because on whatever grounds you made this edit, people will now be feeling bad about their behaviour, and I dunno if that's the best way to tackle the issue!

As a rule of thumb, I'd say when you're in the mood, go for it, have a good time and chat to people. When you're not, don't beat yourself up about simply getting out of the situation and doing something else. Just my 2p.
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[identity profile] ptc24.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 04:27
Having these troubles has been a bane of my existence for quite a while. In my case I tend to put it down to me being awkward and useless rather than too polite or others being too rude (although to a certain extent, there are some quite assertive speakers in these circles, and to a certain extent my reticence to interrupt can be taken as a reaction against an earlier me that just didn't care that he was riding roughshod over other people's conversations, and so considered polite in some sense). I have some tricks for dealing with dud parties: the 1am rule (ie I can go home at 1am and still say to myself I gave things a chance - one of my favourite parties only really got going for me at 12ish. 1am can be earlier if the party started early.), getting involved in games, hogging the stereo, reading graphic novels. I do often go home frustrated, and I know that sometimes I can clumsily interrupt conversations (usually popping the stack by several levels) some times.

Small groups and one-to-one can help, although at various times I had a habit of being stuck as the non-participating one in three-person conversations. That could get extremely frustrating.

All that said, sometimes I do just want to be there, on the edge of things, listening in without feeling the need to actively participate. But at other times I really do feel left out.
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[identity profile] feanelwa.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 04:35
I've noticed people do that to you as well, and I thought it sucked. People used to do it to me all the time too, sometimes still do, athough I'll generally go "Hey! Wait your turn!" at about half the people who do it now.

My reaction to someone interrupting me while I'm trying to talk to someone varies from "well, they were telling her the building was on fire, so I'm not offended" to turning around and saying loudly "Hello, who the hell are you?" if they interrupted in a particularly rude way.

There's a particular way of being interrupted that really gets to me - when the person doing the interrupting shows no sign of having even noticed you were speaking or were even present in the room. In a club this would just make me stick to the dancefloor for a while; in a pub or a private party I often just immediately put my coat on and go home. It has more effect than anything I could say.
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[personal profile] simontMon 2003-12-01 05:08
You've noticed people do it to me? Goodness. You really haven't known me for very long, so if you've already noticed it then I clearly can't have been imagining it! That's sort of reassuring, in a way.

"There's a particular way of being interrupted that really gets to me - when the person doing the interrupting shows no sign of having even noticed you were speaking or were even present in the room."

ARRRRRRGH! Yes. YES. That one is what I always remember from all the particularly obnoxious examples of the phenomenon. I'm paradoxically kind of glad that isn't just me, either (although at the same time I'm not glad it happens to you, IYSWIM).
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[identity profile] mtbc100.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 04:46
Other people seem much more willing to wander up to someone I'm in the middle of talking to, say hi to them and start their own conversation with them, often about something I don't even know about

Frankly, this sounds grossly rude to me. Listening quietly until I understand the topic of conversation is exactly what I do. There's normally someone talking about something that interests me, though.

Getting a word in edgeways naturally can be quite an art, unfortunately, too.
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[identity profile] aiwendel.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 05:49
I've had the same experiences re being talked over/ not being able to talk over/back etc... so its probably fairly normal...

On the one hand conversations will flit from one subject to another ... and i have had many half conversations that got cut off in the middle at crowded events, that i'd very much like to have the chance to finish sometime... but i guess its a problem when there's more than two of you...

I think each case is different - i don't think there's any one rule for its being ok speaking over others or not - sometimes i can go off on one, and appreciate when someone butts in - it keeps the conversation lively, keeps it moving... you cover more... but it depends on the situation... at home i've been completely and utterly ignored when trying to have a conversation with my father just talking over me and completely blanking protestations as if i didn't even exist - which was quite horrible, and this wasn't long ago...

I'd say it is polite to wait and see where the conversation is going first, but it wouldn't be wrong to start another as you arrived (you have the best chance of changing subject- and its in your control to apologuise for interupting and ask what they were talking about to see if its worth going back there...) and if you're bored, you'd have more right to interupt i guess....

The other thing is getting to know new people might be worth doing if those you know are already engrossed...

hmmm anyway not really got anything worthwhile to say here other than - "you're not alone"...

Oh and girls are supposed to be able to deal with multiple streams of conversation all at once, so could happily talk about several things at once, flitting between them, such that you couldn't "change" the subject so much as Add to them... but then i'm not wonderfully good at this, and i'm sure some blokes are... so again, it depends on the people...

xxxxxxxx
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[identity profile] rowan-leigh.livejournal.comMon 2003-12-01 11:06
This reminds me of the only time I actually met you: it was at Kit and Oliver's wedding reception - I was introduced to you, we shook hands, and that was about it, since i was distracted by something else going on. I didn't mean to do that, and I've been kicking myself ever since [not just because it must have seemed ruude, but I was genuinely annoyed at having missed an opportunity to talk to you], so now seems as good a time to apologise as any.
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[identity profile] avicenna697.livejournal.comTue 2003-12-09 07:48
And then there's people like me who turn up when everyone else has left the conversation and moved on to other topics - like now for example.

But whilst I'm here I'll just add FWIW that I experience similar dynamics when with my parents. Talking to my mother she will often betray that she hasn't been listening to a word I've been saying, either by cutting across me mid-sentence to ask a question on a completely unrelated issue or simply getting up and doing something else!!

My father is the complete opposite, he will listen attentively (although will go off on a tangent to whatever it is I wanted to discuss) but when he is speaking will trail off mumbling or just finish his sentence while heading upstairs or into another room, so that I have no chance of hearing the completion of what he was saying.

I suppose in that sense my parents complement each other quite well.

As for me, at home, either because I know what's coming or because I've regressed to my childhood self, I'm now extremely disinclined to start a conversation at all. At a party my experiences are similar to yours, to the point where I often don't even try to influence the direction of the conversation, it's easier to just go with the flow.

Is it bad LJ etiquette to leave a comment long after a thread has gone 'cold'?
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