simont: A picture of me in 2016 (Default)
simont ([personal profile] simont) wrote2010-08-11 11:58 am

More words I wish there were

Words for similar but distinct concepts, that are not themselves similar. The ELF standard for object and executable files contains two concepts which are similar enough to confuse, but different enough that it's normally important not to confuse them, and they're called ‘section’ and ‘segment’. I often wish they'd been called by more obviously different names: ‘section’ and ‘kangaroo’, or something. And I was just reminded this morning of another similar case: ‘project manager’ and ‘product manager’ as distinct corporate roles.

If two concepts are similar but distinct, the words for them should not reflect this by also being similar but distinct! They should be as different as possible.

Moral versus probabilistic ‘expect’. This might fall into the same general category as yesterday's moral vs tactical ‘should’, though I'm not sure whether ‘probabilistic’ and ‘tactical’ are similar enough for it to count. But even if so, it's a particularly noticeable sub-case of it and worth mentioning in its own right.

Imagine a parent saying to a child, before going to visit someone for the day, ‘Now I expect you to be on your best behaviour’; and then, when the child has left the room to get ready, they turn to their co-parent and say ruefully ‘I expect him to throw a huge screaming tantrum, so we'd better be ready to leave in a hurry’. Two clearly distinct words for ‘expect’, please!

[identity profile] meihua.livejournal.com 2010-08-11 12:24 pm (UTC)(link)
There's no such thing as a moral "expect". That's just a guilt-enducing ploy by the parents. "I expect you to be on good behaviour. If you're not on good behaviour, it will show that you're not as good a person as I think you are, and I'll revise my expectation of you so that I think of you as a worse person from now on."

[identity profile] meihua.livejournal.com 2010-08-11 01:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, and that first sense is just an abuse of the second in the way that I described. It's a passive-aggressive guilt trip.

[identity profile] meihua.livejournal.com 2010-08-11 02:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Fair enough. I think the interpersonal use you described is a third, emotionally manipulative case.

[identity profile] wildeabandon.livejournal.com 2010-08-11 04:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't see what's passive-aggressive about it. Telling people that a particular behaviour will outrage* you sounds like fairly straightforward boundary setting to me.

*or upset, or disappoint**, or whatever
**generally what I would mean by "I expect you not to do this" if I don't mean surprise

(Anonymous) 2010-08-11 01:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, that's good, if it inspires the kid to try to be a better person (though not if taken so far so that the kid decides there's no point in trying to be a better person).

S.

[identity profile] meihua.livejournal.com 2010-08-11 01:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Not really. Inspiring kids to be better through threats of loving them less is a great way to raise unhappy adults. A lot of counselling work (which I'm partially trained in) focuses on helping people identify and untangle these kind of guilt trips.

(Anonymous) 2010-08-11 02:44 pm (UTC)(link)
But inspiring kids to be better by making them aware that they will disappoint you if they aren't is exactly what a parent should be doing. Are there no situations where you are helped to do the right thing because you know that if you act wrongly you will disappoint someone you care about -- be that parent, friend, lover or child?

Anyway, if they're a bad person, guilt is the correct reaction. And the idea that people should be happy rather than good is a silly modern notion that can't pass soon enough.

S.
rmc28: Rachel in hockey gear on the frozen fen at Upware, near Cambridge (Default)

[personal profile] rmc28 2010-08-11 02:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Certainly I try to phrase what I want from my son in terms he can follow, and I try to give reasons.

"Please sit quietly on this bus because it's not safe to stand up while it's moving, and there are lots of other people that don't want to hear you making a loud noise."

(We are still working on that; also on the horrific idea that other people may want to sit in his favourite seat.)

But honestly, if one of my parents said to me "I expect you to be on your best behaviour" I would take that as an instruction at face value without the guilt-inducing subtext you have added. In a more destructive parent/child relationship I can see that subtext existing, but the word 'expect' doesn't have to imply it.
ext_78: A picture of a plush animal. It looks a bit like a cross between a duck and a platypus. (Amy)

[identity profile] pne.livejournal.com 2010-08-13 10:12 am (UTC)(link)
(We are still working on [...] the horrific idea that other people may want to sit in his favourite seat.)

Heh. Sounds familiar.

Made even worse by the fact that Amy not only wants a window seat, but (a) it has to be at the back (where the floor is higher up, so that she can actually see through the window more easily) and (b) it has to be next to me.

There are, in many busses we take, exactly four seats satisfying criterion (a), and hoping that both they and the adjacent seat are free is, well, a good setup to frustration.