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simont

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Tue 2010-08-10 14:38
Things I wish there were words for

Failing to draw a distinction between any worthwhile things. There's a particular way in which a concept – a noun or adjective, or a philosophical term of art – can fail to be practically useful: by being defined in such a way that nothing, or nothing interesting, satisfies its definition. Or else nothing (interesting) doesn't satisfy its definition. As soon as you notice you're talking about a concept which encompasses either everything or nothing, you're usually wasting your time (except in the rare cases where you really intended to be talking about either everything or nothing), and should instead be looking for some alternative concept (or a less absolutist interpretation of the same concept) which manages to draw a dividing line such that at least one interesting thing falls on each side of it.

I want a word for that particular form of uselessness, so that I can much more economically point out when somebody (certainly including me) has perpetrated it, and it doesn't take me a whole paragraph just to explain why I'm giving up and trying a different approach.

Moral versus tactical ‘should’. It keeps striking me as an unfortunate property of English that the word ‘should’, and many of its synonyms and related words, are sometimes used to indicate moral obligation and sometimes used to indicate the tactically (or strategically) optimal course of action. Usually it's obvious from context which sense is meant in any given case, but not always, and I've seen just a couple too many arguments flare up from somebody misconstruing a ‘should’ as moral when it was intended tactically, or (more rarely) vice versa. It's a pain to keep tacking on disambiguating parentheses such as ‘(I'm speaking in the tactical sense here)’, so I want two clearly different words that can be used in place of the ambiguous ‘should’, at least in sensitive circumstances and perhaps more widely too.

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[identity profile] meihua.livejournal.comTue 2010-08-10 13:50
I'm so not a fan of "should", "ought" and similar words. In counselling training, one spends some time looking at words like that and the ideas behind them.

Nowadays I don't really use 'should' in either a moral or a tactical sense. I reject the moral use, and I tend to replace the tactical use with a statement using the word "useful" which describes how a particular tactic might reach a particular goal. As in, "If you want to get an x, doing a y might be useful".
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(Anonymous)Tue 2010-08-10 16:12
'Ought' is a good word to convey the moral sense of 'should' (which I do not reject because, you know, that's like rejecting right and wrong). While it is possible to say 'you ought to take that bishop so that he doesn't pin your rook', it's not the immediate connotation that springs to mind -- that is, I think, the moral sense.

As for the other sense, you could use 'had better' ('you had better move that fragile ornament before the crowd of small children arrive'), perhaps?

S.
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[identity profile] meihua.livejournal.comTue 2010-08-10 23:04
I don't really agree with the way of seeing the world that your comment is coming from, so I'm not sure how to reply. Rejecting "right and wrong" seems like an excellent idea to me, and also I'd always say something like, "Could you move that before the small children arrive?", or, "I think the children might knock that over..."
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[identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.comTue 2010-08-10 14:09
As always, I think that's an excellent point. I'm never sure when it's better to have a word for a logical fallacy like that, and when it's better to state your objection, if concisely, every time, to avoid getting bogged down in technical terms people almost but don't quite understand.

I know what you mean about should: it's related to what I was saying about is vs ought (Hume's fork). But I don't know what word would be clearer
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[identity profile] pseudomonas.livejournal.comTue 2010-08-10 15:42
#1: the word "nondiscriminatory" is currently in my head.
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[identity profile] hatam-soferet.livejournal.comTue 2010-08-10 15:44
I call that first one "pikuach nefesh," after a particular Jewish legal concept. In brief, pikuach nefesh means that the sanctity of life overrides most other rules; during theoretical discussions of any rule, people tend to invoke pikuach nefesh as an example of the rule's weakness, which is excessively boring of them because it is a concept encompassing everything and nothing. So in my idiolect, "pikuach nefesh!!!" means "we could pursue that line of discussion but it would cease to be interesting."

We also need two kinds of "sorry," to distinguish between "I'm sorry your cat died" and "I'm sorry I killed your cat."
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[personal profile] simontTue 2010-08-10 15:47
Two kinds of sorry: but then how would anyone get away with 'apologising' for "you're an idiot" with "I'm sorry you're an idiot"? :-)
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[identity profile] hatam-soferet.livejournal.comTue 2010-08-10 15:48
Oh, jolly good point. :)
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[personal profile] mair_in_grenderichTue 2010-08-10 16:52
I'm sad; I regret?
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[identity profile] hatam-soferet.livejournal.comTue 2010-08-10 16:58
Hmmmmmm. Yeah, okay :)
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(Anonymous)Tue 2010-08-10 16:13
'But if you make that definition, that makes the concept far too broad / far too narrow.'

S.
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[identity profile] pjc50.livejournal.comTue 2010-08-10 20:39
Does "distinction without a difference" cover the first case?

There are plenty of people who clearly don't distinguish internally the second case: try proposing something suboptimal in front of them and watch the moral outrage fly. Highly prevalent in the geek community, but you can also find people elevating the conventional choices of middle class lifestyles and property ownership to moral imperatives.

The first case also tells you something useful: your interlocutor thinks there is a distinction. The two concepts in their mind are separate.
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(Anonymous)Wed 2010-08-11 15:11
Lojban
Learning Lojban might help you make the distinction...

http://xkcd.com/191/

...but only to yourself.
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