Yet more abstract things that annoy me [entries|reading|network|archive]
simont

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Wed 2009-11-04 11:37
Yet more abstract things that annoy me

Blindness to the difference between positive and negative incentives. If there are two options, of which someone is currently choosing option A and you'd like them to choose option B instead, you can attempt to achieve this in two ways. You can increase the attractiveness of B to more than that of A, or you can reduce the attractiveness of A to less than that of B. Both of these have a good chance of changing behaviour, but the former makes the people it affects happier, while the latter makes them less so. Doing the latter when you could reasonably have done the former, or acting all surprised when you do the latter and people mysteriously don't seem to be happy about it, considered irritating.

Things that are simultaneously interesting and tiresome. Whether it's a potentially interesting topic of discussion but most people tend to focus on the boring bits, or whether it's interesting in principle but long since done to death, or whether the tiresomeness of the fact that it needs to be argued about at all is in opposition to the interestingness of some of the actual arguments, or whether the interesting and tiresome parts can't even be separated like that and the problem is just that my brain can't make up its mind whether it likes it, or (in extreme cases) all of the above. It's fair enough in this morally complex world that things can be both good and bad, but one might naïvely have thought it should at least be possible to reach a conclusion about whether any given thing was interesting or not. Gah.

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[identity profile] pne.livejournal.comWed 2009-11-04 11:41
How many interesting numbers are there?
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[personal profile] simontWed 2009-11-04 11:46
I had a good discussion with somebody once about which of the many refutations of the "all numbers are interesting" argument was the most important one. Interestingness is quantitative; interestingness is subjective; interestingness and meta-interestingness are fundamentally distinct; etc. I don't think we reached much of a conclusion, but it was an interesting question :-)
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[identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.comWed 2009-11-04 19:25
Yeah. I'm not sure, but maybe the correct approach is (like various numerical problems) to try it: make a nice double blind experiment where you show numbers to people and see how much they pay attention. Choose an arbitrary threshold for "paying attention" and choose a set of interesting numbers. Are all numbers you try in the set? If not, find the smallest number which isn't in the set, and see if it is in the set.

Put like that, the results sound obvious :)
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[identity profile] songster.livejournal.comWed 2009-11-04 13:52
Every number is interesting.

Proof: Consider the set of all non-interesting numbers, arranged by size. The smallest of these is in fact interesting: it is the smallest number which has no interesting properties. By induction, it follows that all numbers are interesting.
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[personal profile] fanfSat 2009-11-07 13:24
Unfortunately that inductive step doesn't work: it fails to prove that the second-least element of the set of uninteresting numbers is as interesting as the least element.
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[identity profile] songster.livejournal.comSat 2009-11-07 13:27
You're right, it's not an inductive proof, it's a reductio ad absurdam.

Since the smallest element of the set of uninteresting numbers is interesting, it must therefore not be a part of the set. We have a paradox, hence the "smallest element of the set of uninteresting numbers" does not exist, and the set is empty.
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[personal profile] simontWed 2009-11-04 11:42
(Or, come to think of it, when it's 'interesting' to you in the sense that it's in your interests to deal with it, and yet tedious to actually do so. I'm not sure that one really counts as the same thing – it's a somewhat different situation, not to mention a very common one – but it's certainly also very annoying.)
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[personal profile] andrewduckerWed 2009-11-04 11:52
Interesting is clearly a subjective judgement. I'm interested in the RBS share price, for instance, because I own some. Most people are not.

I'm with you on incentives - although you should bear in mind that negative incentives are frequently cheaper than positive ones.
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[personal profile] simontWed 2009-11-04 11:56
*nods* most obviously financial incentives – it's easy to imagine that raising the price of A will often make more money than lowering the price of B, absent a significant number of people entering the market who previously wouldn't have bought either. It's just that, well, it would be less irritating if this were done with an air of "regrettably we have had to take this step" rather than "we've made life that bit more unpleasant for you, aren't we great?".
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[personal profile] andrewduckerWed 2009-11-04 12:29
Absolutely. Of course, you're frequently competing with other negative incentives as well. Take overdrafts, for instance - if HBOS want people to stop using them then they have to raise the costs to the point where people would rather not eat/drink than go into their overdraft, which is a heck of a disincentive to outpace :->
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[personal profile] simontWed 2009-11-04 12:08
And yes, I hadn't intended to imply that interestingness was ever objective. My entire second paragraph there was intended to carry an implicit "to me": it irritates me when something is both interesting to me and tiresome to me. The fact that something can be interesting to somebody else and tiresome to me, or vice versa, is of course perfectly fair enough (and indeed often desirable!).
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[personal profile] andrewduckerWed 2009-11-04 12:30
Aaah! Now I understand!

Yes - for instance I find washing up completely lacking in interest, but having clean dishes to be in my interest.
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[identity profile] j4.livejournal.comWed 2009-11-04 12:12
You can increase the attractiveness of B to more than that of A, or you can reduce the attractiveness of A to less than that of B.

As a slight variant on this, I have said many times at work that if you want to change people's behaviour you either have to make the right choice more attractive or make the wrong choice impossible, and preferably both.

Things that are simultaneously interesting and tiresome.

This is a useful way of looking at Conversations I Know I Hate But Can't Keep Out Of[*]. I started writing a comment attempting to work out what they all had in common, but it got a bit long and rambly, so I think it may end up being a post of my own (from which I'll probably link to you unless you object!).

[*] It occurs to me that it's a long time since I heard anybody say 'TGGD'.
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[personal profile] simontWed 2009-11-04 12:18
or make the wrong choice impossible

Hmm, an interesting point. A quick thought experiment in one of the cases that inspired that annoyance suggests that I might in fact have been less annoyed to have my favourite shortcut actually blocked off than to have it filled with exceptionally uncomfortable speed bumps. At least then there wouldn't be a decision to be made any more.

from which I'll probably link to you unless you object

Yes, feel free.

(TGGD is an excellent example of the latter annoyance for me too...)
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[identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.comWed 2009-11-04 19:20
In fact, it's a while since I've heard anyone have a god debate. That is, there have been some talk about religion, and other boring arguments, but I just pleasantly realised I've recently escaped pointless rehashing of arguments that most people have already heard. I hope that doesn't mean its me making them :)
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[identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.comWed 2009-11-04 19:20
:) I like your descriptions of things that annoy you.
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[identity profile] gareth-rees.livejournal.comWed 2009-11-04 21:05
An abstract thing that annoys me is when someone describes something in completely abstract or formal terms, when a few well-chosen examples would have made things simultaneously easier to understand and more interesting.
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[identity profile] jvvw.livejournal.comWed 2009-11-04 22:12
I find there are quite a lot of interesting questions which routinely lead to rather boring discussions.
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[identity profile] khalinche.livejournal.comThu 2009-11-05 14:55
One version of the latter is the conversation with ayssemtrical levels of interest, in which two people are talking about something interesting which one person doesn't get to talk about much and therefore wants to discuss at length and which the other person spends lots of time dealing with and is therefore tired of talking about. I get this a lot. ('Wow, so...Bolivia! How fascinating! Tell me about this Evo Morales chap!' --> *suppressed groan*)
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[personal profile] simontThu 2009-11-05 15:03
Sounds a lot like a thing I get, which is "Oh, you wrote that? Pleasure to meet you. Actually, I've got this small problem with it..."
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[identity profile] khalinche.livejournal.comThu 2009-11-05 15:23
Yes, I thought that might be the case ;-) The vexing thing is, it is interesting, but there's certainly a maximum frequency with which those conversations can happen before they get tedious.

It's also challenging to triage the conversations from that starting point: sometimes they branch and leaf out into new, useful and intensely enjoyable discussions and sometimes people are essentially saying 'EDUCATE ME, PLZ!' or using it as a springboard to ask lots of frustratingly simplistic questions/tell you about their own usually-less-informed-but-strongly-held opinions. I have also found this to be true for online discussions about feminism. But without knowing which it will be, it feels unwise to just shut down the conversation by going, 'I'm sorry, I think about that all day long and would rather talk about pie, or clouds'.
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[personal profile] simontThu 2009-11-05 15:46
sometimes people are essentially saying 'EDUCATE ME, PLZ!' or using it as a springboard to ask lots of frustratingly simplistic questions

Mmm. Though, of course, it's easy to understand their motivation – if they want to have an interesting discussion about your interesting topic, they've got to get up to speed on enough of it to talk about usefully, and the options for doing that within the time frame of the current conversation are either to persuade you to bring them up to speed or abandon the whole thing.

In such situations I do try to anticipate what the most obvious stupid question must be and avoid asking it, but I'm often left with the suspicion that I probably only succeeded in replacing it with the second most obvious one...
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[identity profile] khalinche.livejournal.comThu 2009-11-05 14:56
PS I can normally not woefully misspell 'asymmetrical', by the way.
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