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simont

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Thu 2006-05-04 11:36
In typo veritas

I saw a web page just now which referred to Lewis Carroll as ‘the Reverent Charles Dodgson’.

I rather like that typo: ‘Reverent’ instead of ‘Reverend’. It suggests that what distinguishes a clergyman is not that people revere him, but that he reveres God more than most people. It carries connotations of humility and religious devotion; it suggests almost subliminally that the clergy are a means for exalting God, rather than vice versa. It's almost monk-like, somehow.

Of course, as an atheist I have no personal interest in whether or not God gets exalted. But even to someone who doesn't subscribe to the belief system in question, it seems to me to strike a more constructive note: ‘Reverend’ suggests ‘I know the Truth and therefore I'm great’, whereas ‘Reverent’ is more like ‘I know the Truth and therefore I'm going to get on with doing stuff about it’, which seems like a more generally well-adjusted attitude to me. And it's less intrusive to non-believers, who might interpret ‘Reverend’ as an unwanted command to revere someone they don't feel like revering, but who can't argue with ‘Reverent’ as a purely factual description of what someone does for a living.

In the unlikely event that I ever get round to doing something about one of my SF novel ideas, I might stick a religious order in the book and use ‘Reverent’ as the official honorific for its priesthood. The more I think about it from any angle, the more I like it.

(Hmm. If a religious order couldn't decide which of the two honorifics to use and wanted to avoid a schism, would they hold a reverendum?)

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[identity profile] geekette8.livejournal.comThu 2006-05-04 10:55
(Hmm. If a religious order couldn't decide which of the two honorifics to use and wanted to avoid a schism, would they hold a reverendum?)

I think I love you.

Presumably "Reverend" can mean any of "requiring to be revered", "deserving to be revered", "wanting to be revered"...? Now you put it like that, it does seem a bit odd that clergy (who should presumable be aspiring to humility and meekness in general) should choose such a title for themselves. I do like "Reverent" much better.
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[identity profile] geekette8.livejournal.comThu 2006-05-04 10:55
s/presumable/presumably/ !
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[personal profile] simontThu 2006-05-04 11:06
Now you put it like that

That's the key bit, I think. It had never occurred to me before to view "reverend" in such an unfavourable light, until I saw "reverent" put in its place and thought "now you mention it...".
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[identity profile] feanelwa.livejournal.comThu 2006-05-04 11:12
I always thought "reverend" was like "graduand", i.e. one who is in the process of revering. I then thought "why do you need to keep supporting bigotry at the same time?".
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[identity profile] feanelwa.livejournal.comThu 2006-05-04 11:14
Or in fact like "ordinand". First you are an ordinand, then you are a reverend, because you learn how to priest, then you revere. Or pretend to while promoting your own pet causes because one phrase in a whole book vaguely implied that you were agreed with several thousand years ago.
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[personal profile] simontThu 2006-05-04 11:24
The "-and" or "-end" suffix comes from the Latin gerundive, as I understand it, and generally implies an action that is, or should be, or will be, or might be, done to the thing being described. A dividend is something being divided by a divisor; a subtrahend is the thing being taken away; an ordinand is someone going to be ordained; a reverend is someone being revered.

Now you mention it, "graduand" is a bit anomalous there, because we typically say that one is graduating rather than being graduated. Perhaps the passive form was in use at some earlier time (and/or in Latin) and the gerundive form of that usage has survived even though the direct verbal form has fallen into disuse.
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[identity profile] feanelwa.livejournal.comThu 2006-05-04 11:29
Hmmm. Possibly it's similar to "graduand" because to graduate, you stand in a big hall wearing silly clothes and do a ritual containing many actions that appear to be pointless.
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[identity profile] rathenar.livejournal.comThu 2006-05-04 11:58
How wonderful! May I metaquote you please?

And yes, I much prefer "reverent". Is the term open to general stealing or do you wish to reserve its use for your own literary purposes?

(Also, "reverendum" -> *headdeskgiggle*)
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[personal profile] simontThu 2006-05-04 12:15
By all means metaquote anything you like :-)

And by all means steal the term, too. I'd be terribly selfish to reserve it given the unlikelihood of my ever actually getting round to writing that novel!
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[personal profile] simontThu 2006-05-04 12:37
... and (he belatedly remembers to say) thank you :-)
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[identity profile] hsenag.livejournal.comThu 2006-05-04 12:29
Non-believers [...] can't argue with ‘Reverent’ as a purely factual description of what someone does for a living

I might argue with the idea that ministers of religion should be "allowed"[1] to use their job title with their name whereas most other jobs aren't.

[1] by custom rather than by any law, AFAIK
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[identity profile] shadowphiar.livejournal.comThu 2006-05-04 12:54
Quite right. Perhaps you should write to your M.P. about it.
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[personal profile] simontThu 2006-05-04 13:01
Hmm. If somebody called me "Engineer Simon" or "Programmer Tatham", I think it would give me connotations of some kind of totalitarianism: it smacks of a setup in which people are only, or primarily, important for their ability to contribute to the workforce. Almost as bad as being Programmer #933!

"Reverend" is fundamentally different from that in that it isn't a description of the job, but "Reverent" might plausibly be closer to the same sort of territory – in which case it's more demeaning than exalting, which might work well with its already-monkish overtones but on the other hand might just end up being dropped.
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[personal profile] lnrThu 2006-05-04 13:40
Doctor? That one's a bit woolly due to other doctorates but largely isn't used routinely outside the medical profession

Professor?

Army/Naval ranks?
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[identity profile] marnanel.livejournal.comThu 2006-05-04 13:54
"Doctor" is a job title: most(?) medical practitioners are MB BS, so they're not doctors of anything.
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[personal profile] lnrThu 2006-05-04 15:38
Well yes (which is why I mentioned it) and no (because some people with doctorates use it too).
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